By Lauren Russell, CNN
(CNN) - While most of the nation's students are enjoying summer break, teachers in a handful of states are studying – not their fall curriculum, but how to take out an assailant.
In Ohio, Buckeye Firearms Association, a gun rights PAC, has launched a program to educate teachers on how to take down a gunman.
"We were mocked when we first said we wanted to teach this class," Jim Irvine, president of Buckeye, said. "People doubted if we could fill the class."
States tighten, loosen gun laws after Newtown
Yet more than 1,400 school staff members applied for the 24 spots first offered in late December, he said.
Interest in arming teachers has grown among some school staff, gun rights groups and lawmakers in the aftermath of the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, in which 20 students – ages 6 and 7 – and six adults were killed in Newtown, Connecticut, on December 14.
Photos: Teachers pose with their guns
Gun rights groups have sponsored classes for teachers in a number of states from Texas to Ohio.
In the six months since the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary, legislators in at least 30 states have proposed laws allowing teachers and other school staff to carry firearms on primary and secondary school campuses, according to Lauren Heintz, a research analyst at the National Conference of State Legislatures. In most states the bills have failed, but laws have been enacted in South Dakota, Alabama, Arizona, and Kansas. Texas, which already allows staff to carry firearms with school approval, passed two new laws creating a "school marshal" program and addressing training teachers.
Some bills proposed in the past six months require only that the school employee have a concealed-firearm permit, but many of the bills include training provisions. For example, South Dakota's new law requires law enforcement-approved training for every appointed school sentinel.
The week after Sandy Hook, NRA Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre told the media that all schools in the United States should have armed security, and an NRA-backed task force proposed training and arming adults at schools.
Six months since Sandy Hook: Newtown residents find their voice
"Will you at least admit it's possible that 26 innocent lives might have been spared?" LaPierre asked. "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," he said.
Before Sandy Hook, no state's law explicitly permitted firearms on school campuses, though some states had exemptions, according to the NCSL.
For 12 years, Utah's concealed weapon law has permitted a person to have, on his or her person or in a secure lockbox, a weapon inside a school. As concealed firearm permit holders, they are not required to tell parents or school officials.
But in Texas and Ohio, for instance, a person must get permission from the school district to bring a concealed weapon on school grounds.
The Harrold Independent School District board in rural Texas approved a plan to arm certain staff members in 2007. Under the so-called Guardian Plan, identities of armed staff members aren't divulged. This way, a shooter can't target them, the superintendent wrote in a column for CNN's "Schools of Thought" blog after Newtown.
"At the end of the school day, we at Harrold want to know we've done everything possible to protect our children from people who are intent on harming them," David Thweatt wrote.
The Union Grove Independent School District and Van Independent School District, both in East Texas, in January became the second and third districts in the state to authorize teachers with concealed handgun licenses to carry firearms on campus.
At Colt's Connecticut factory, no apologies for arming America
Ohio allows school boards to vote on whether teachers and administrators can carry concealed weapons into schools, a stipulation that was largely overlooked until Sandy Hook. The exception has existed since at least 2008 when the law was last amended.
Dick Caster, head of the Ohio School Board Association, said school safety plans are private documents, so there isn't a list of all the school districts that have armed employees. Though not required to disclose it, a few Ohio school districts have made headlines by voting to allow teachers to carry guns. Sidney City Schools announced in March it would be arming staff, and the school board in Montpelier approved arming its custodial staff in January.
But Bill Bond, a former principal who once confronted a shooter, isn't so sure arming teachers is the answer. In 1997, a student shot eight of his peers at Kentucky's Heath High School, where Bond was principal at the time. Three of those students were killed in the shooting. Looking back, Bond said he wouldn't have wanted a gun. "It could have made the situation worse," he said. "The potential for wrongful accidental killing is greater than the potential for saving," he said about arming school personnel.
He supports having trained school resource officers on campus, but educators have enough on their plates without the responsibility of a deadly weapon, he said.
"Anytime you have divided or added responsibilities, it distracts from primary responsibilities," he said. "From an educational standpoint, I'm against it."
Bond worked 29 years in schools and has been the school safety expert with the National Association of Secondary School Principals for 12 years. He's heard talk of arming school personnel before, but it wasn't seriously considered until after Sandy Hook, he said.
"I do realize that the only thing that would have been able to stop (the shooter) was gunfire," he said, "but that particular situation is an anomaly."
He also points out that an armed educator would have had only one gun with a few rounds, while the shooter had multiple firearms and 30-round magazines.
"Teachers will hesitate and that will cause teachers to be killed, and if they don't hesitate they'll make the wrong decision," Bond said. "It's wracked with danger."
Ken Trump, a school safety consultant who runs his own firm, agrees that it's a high-risk, high-liability proposal. He thinks only a law enforcement officer should carry weapons on campus.
"There's a huge difference between saying, 'I can protect my family and my home,' versus 'I'm prepared to protect the masses,'" he said.
There's also the question of whether teachers want to carry guns. Nearly three-fourths of teachers said they would not bring a firearm to school even if allowed, a February School Improvement Network survey showed. However, the survey showed most educators believed armed guards would improve safety.
John Benner, president and chief instructor at the Ohio-based Tactical Defense Institute, has trained school resource officers for years. He taught his first class to teachers this spring.
The three-day class, sponsored by Buckeye Firearms Association, examined mass shootings and taught school personnel how to predict a killer's behavior and shoot on the run amid obstacles like narrow hallways and stairwells. Police officers and SWAT commanders help teach the course. Participants had to have a concealed weapons permit before registering.
Buckeye paid about $1,000 per teacher, which includes tuition, room and board, and ammunition. The group will cover tuition and board for the six courses offered this summer.
Benner would like to see all school employees – teachers, resource officers, administrators – learn to use firearms.
"I hate the idea of arming teachers, but we have to," Benner said. Signs and locks won't deter an attacker and police can't respond quickly enough, he said. "It's the only thing that's going to work."
Asked if training law enforcement officers to patrol schools was a better idea than arming teachers, Caster, who was the executive director for the National Association of School Resource Officers before joining the Ohio School Board Association, said it's not possible.
School resource officers are typically funded by either the school or the local law enforcement agency.
"This is what it boils down to: Can you afford to have an officer in every school?" Caster said. "It's not in the budget."
In any event, he said, emotions should not drive the discussion.
"This isn't about guns, it's about a possible tactic," Caster said. "My plea is that we have a rational, logical discussion (about arming teachers) as an additional possible tool."
Crimminy – I wouldn't have made it out of kindergarten.
I agree with a lot of your beliefs, but the real truth is, no matter how many laws are enacted by the government, firearms are readily available to anyone who can afford them. There are a lot of blackmarket ways of purchasing a firearm, and even drug dealers can aid in illegally obtaining a firearm.
As an educator, a father, a friend, and a husband, I believe that teachers should have the right to posess a firearm. This is because, teachers spend 8-10 hours a day raising a group of children that in reality is not their own, but as a teacher you feel a part of each childs life. Therefore, teachers need to be able to protect their children in the same fashion a parent would want to protect his/her home from invasion. After all, a classroom is a home for both children and educators, and for some, it is all they have.
I know that teacher is out to teach a new lescine that's 4 shore is school weath it?gust anthe bick in the wall,.pnm,.
It's stupid for teachers to be armed because they may shoot their own students if something terrible happens!
Well,I think it that is why they need to learn to use a gun,to control it,even more,need to learn how to calm down,not feel scare when see gun shoots,and then try to do something make .
Looks like the kid's are definitely getting homeschooled or are going to a private school.
It's typically over before anyone reacts.
Take out an assailant?? They should have better dating standards.
Wow. Some of the comments on here just go to prove that Americans are the most paranoid untrusting people in the world. You all say how much you love your country, yet think every single person should have a gun just in case a psycho comes trying to commit a mass murder? Don'T you realise how insane that sounds? Get some comprehensible gun laws for christ's sake and stop acting like owning a gun is a god given right.
I am an American and agree thoroughly with your points
I agree completely
Name a comprehensible gun law criminals will obey!
one that prevents a gun from falling into their hands...
I live in HK, where firearms are illegal, which is the way I really think it should be. But the fact is that a new gun control policy is simply not gonna happen, at least not anytime soon in the US. So consider the rising number of school shootings lately, I do believe it's not a bad idea to give out lesson to teachers on basic firearm handling, or at least how to react when a situation arises.
Laws do not prevent crime, people prevent crime. It is our God given right to defend ourselves, and what better way? by enacting more laws that prevent nothing? Tell me a law that has ever prevented a crime... Laws are there to punish law breakers. If flipping the bird were against the law, how would those words on a page prevent me from doing so? They can't just like mass killings cannot be prevented by laws. But a killer on a spree, could be stopped by a person with a gun, or 2 people, or 3... Why is this so hard to comprehend? It is a right, exercise it or don't...
you hit the nail on the head.
I respect the fact that these teachers are learning to use firearms. In fact, I think people should at least have a working knowledge.
My question is, if a gun man is in a school and the teacher shoots the gunman who will help that teacher pick up the pieces of having to shoot a person. Second question, what if it is a student from that school and the teacher has to shoot him or her. Who will help that teacher pick up the pieces.
I know how to shoot both rifles and handguns at targets which is fun, from what I understand though shooting a person is an entire different ballgame and it has an effect on the person who shoots some one.
these nra buffons who think a gun in everybody's hand is the solution are plain wrong, the only reason police fire back in engagements is the fact they won't be able to wear their badge the next day (pride), people get scared in firefights and it is only those who have been in life and death situations enough times (navy seals, marines, ect..) who don't fear death, the average person will look out for number one, go into shock, hide and just maybe grab the composure to unholster their weapon, but i will say this, the real threat in my opinion comes from those students who fail out of college – nearly every mass murderer was a college drop out, my guess is between the debt, failure and loss of their dream job they lost the will to live and wanted to inflict pain on others, advisors and parents need a strong dialogue and the parents of those students who are failing out better make sure their child (18 doesn't make you a man) is not armed
I disagree..Guns should only be carried by a certified and licensed professional. I work as a police officer on a college campus, and know these students don’t even know how to tie their shoes when they first leave home let alone carry a gun. As police officers we go through special training on how to handle an ACTIVE SHOOTER. Something the non-law enforcement gun owners know nothing about. It’s more to effectively eliminating a moving and violent target than just pointing and shooting. Another thing people don’t understand, when police receive a call we only have limited information on the shoot. White male with a gun...And in the suburb of Houston in which I currently work and reside, that everybody..SO the first one that appears through the running crowd with a gun pointed is a dangerous move for him/her.
Ahh, the old "a CCW will make you a target" argument. Never happens. The only time police shoot a law abiding citizen with a gun it seems is when they are in their OWN homes. I highly doubt you actually are a police officer anyway. Your comment sounds like typical anti-talk.
Unless cops are specifically targeted, you are NOT first responders, you are second responders. People actually there being attacked are first responders. Give them the tools for EFFECTIVE self defense.
Crimson Trace Grips ,,Holosite optics, all handgun custom parts on a Glock,,A Colt,,A Semi-Auto pistol anything to me ,,well I don't count. I got out of school alive in 1978 when we didn't shoot at each other,,I started trapshooting in 1970 at age 12 ATA Member 4046233,,,Where are the smart ones ?? anyone trained at all knows the wisdom,,YOU CARRY YOUR PISTOL TO PROTECT YOU UNTIL YOU GET WITHIN REACH OF YOUR RIFLE,,sometimes I feel old as dirt since its obvious I am Old School,,but when its isn't broke ..you don't try to fix it. WE Train Soldiers in this country in 90 days ,,BOOTCAMP,,,and my own father joined the U.S. Army at age 16,,he took his birth certificate to the county courthouse and explained "There Has To Be A Mistake on the date ,,so a 16 Year Old Named Albert Mosley from Owsley County , Ky became a Sergeant 1st Class in uncle sams Army,,had a son ,,me . I don't know what kind of Jollies People like you get from claiming Most people can't shoot without all that training you speak of..Mr.. This is Kentucky,,you be a lot better off trying tofind someone Who Can't Shoot,,Happy Hunting ..aka = Bigfoot
My family and I are Virginia born-n-raised, I like yourself was taught to respect weapons and not to fear them. Currently I find myself in a God forsaken State called Connecticut, it seems the fine citizens of this State do not agree with us, 6 months have passed ..."Sandyhook". not only are you not allowed (State Law) to possess a weapon on school grounds, a whole new set of laws have been enacted over the past six months. Back ground checks are one issue that may help when a person looks at the situtation (Wrong Person with a gun), however these people went way overboard. Honestly, you sound rational to me, my father also served in WW2 and I was raised around weapons of all types, I believe most "city folk" are not , the only thing they know is that little jody ate a bullet by...accident, on purpose (B&E, Robbery ect:) and is now DEAD. They preceive it as antiquated, only a "red neck" would conceive a gun as a good thing. I don't think it's a fight with people who understand weapons, it's how to over come the fear of the unknown, to preswade people who ,if ya have a southern draw in your voice they see you as stupid or worse. Any way were holden down the fort, God speed with reguards to your efforts.
A Virginia country boy, in a foreign land. : )
For Bigfoot & GW Hammer-I TOTALLY agree with both of you. My Dad is a 20 year Army Combat Vet, became a deputy sheriff when he retired from the Army. I'm an Army Brat. Raised around way more powerful stuff than most "city folk" see .One of the first things Dad taught me was RESPECT for the TOOL in YOUR hand. Dad also taught me that I was RESPONSIBLE for MY OWN ACTIONS and to NOT MAKE EXCUSES as we see to often in our society. When I bought my my own guns, the first thing I taught my kids was EXACTLY what Dad taught me. If you don't teach RESPECT and RESPONSIBILITY when it come to firearms you have the crimes we have to deal with in our society. Our society has become to willing to 'let the government handle it'. We don't need a CCW law in this country. What we need is an OPEN CARRY Law throughout the US. WHY hide the guns people have when we could carry the guns openly on our person? Kind of think that would have a BIG deterrent on the criminal element to see Citizens armed, don't you both think?
There is no noodle school in Franklin Furnace there is just Green High school and I don't know this teacher.is this story fake?
Its a bit ironic that after newtown, we heard constant cries that we absolutely had to do something, like gun control. Now that there is a proposal that could really help, armed staff in schools, all of the sudden the progressives change their tune, and start telling us school shooting are rare, and we dont need to do anything. Hippocrites.
It's "hypocrites." Maybe you should have spent a little more time in school actually learning and less on the gun range.
Gunfree zones are hunting zones for predators and the mentally ill. That said I'm not sure I want many of our progressive teachers who are commenting here carrying. They are right about the rarity of rampage shootings. That of course doesn't stop them from wanting to take my gun away does it. What seems to be epidemic in the schools is teachers molesting and Fu*king the children entrusted to their "loving" care.
You're an idiot.
Not all teachers are progressive, and the progressive ones wont want to get armed anyway, let the conservative teachers protect us.
My 2 kids are half way through grammar school, and I haven't seen a teach or an administrator that looked up to the task of being armed. Let the cops carry the guns and let the teachers focus on the kids, not on being part time warriors.
If there is going to be a teacher with a Fire Arm in my school I am going to want to see their mental background records and testing, their firearms training and scores, at parent teachers conference they are going to be scrutinized as much as they scrutinize their students!
I beleive concealed carry permits anready require a background check and training. For that matter I think you need a background check to teach in the first place.
A formula for disaster.
"Gun free" zones are nothing but an invitation for wanton violence, as they advertise that everyone in the 'zone' are defenseless 'victims'. Providing an armed deterent is the logical approach to preventing mass violence and is the responsible thing to do, it's also what our hypocritical politicians do for themselves, as every last one of them has armed security details.
Nonsense. How frequently do we have spree killers targeting schools? Do you think maybe it would be better to ensure that mentally ill people be prevented from getting guns? That maybe fewer guns would be better?
Why aren't other countries having these sorts of problems?
Keep mentally ill from getting guns, yes, but keeping everybody from getting guns, no way. And armed teachers, if the teacher wants it, and is trained, why not.
Because it creates a far greater risk than benefit.
Look at the statistics if you can manage it. Figure it out. How many kids are killed in a year by accident because there is a gun in the house? How many kids are killed every year in school shootings like Newtown?
The best any trained police or LE organization has ever done is 21% accuracy under fire.
What makes anyone think teachers are going to do better?
So let's give them all guns so that we can have good old fashioned shoot outs in our schools. If they manage to hit their target 20% of the time, that means that 80% of the time they will miss.
Who do you think those 80% misses are going to hit?
The kids scrambling around behind the gunman.
What makes anyone think teachers are going to do better [than 21% accuracy]?
The question isn't "will teachers do better," but "will a citizen who takes upon themselves the responsibility of carrying a firearm for protection do better," and evidence is that generally they do. Citizens with CCW routinely put more rounds through the barrel on their own dime than police officers do in training. It's the difference between doing something because you want to and doing a job. Before you start making the "stray bullets" argument, could you please present actual cases where a licensed CCW holder actually did hit innocents with stray fire. While I could present plenty involving the police, but can't remember even hearing of this with a responsible, armed civilian.
Not part of the article or discussion is the fact that any dirtbag looking to make his mark on the world by killing a lot of people, will think twice before shooting up a school that is known to have armed teachers and staff. There is a reason that none of these sickos go to a police station and shoot there. They want more bodies, not a shootout. In the end, it may just move the slaughter somewhere else, like a mall or park. But I'm okay with the idea that schools will become less and less an easy target.
So having no way to defend oneself or their students against a shooter is a better alternative than the potential risk of shooting a student while defending them from someone there to kill them in the first place? Derp is an appropriate name for you.
Marine Engineer: "So having no way to defend oneself or their students against a shooter"
You seem to think that teachers and kids are in grave danger of being attacked by a gunman every day! This incident occurred because a mentally ill young man had access to firearms. It's extremely unlikely that any school is going to be attacked, period. There is no reason to treat teachers like they are there to defend themselves and their students from killers every day all over the country. It's ludicrous to act as though kids are in danger at all times and need an armed guard in their classroom to be safe. Don't be such a hysteric.
If its ludicrous to allow teachers to be armed, which might actually help stop a shooter, because as you say school shooting are so rare, then it is even more stupid to use a school shooting as an excuse for gun control, since that so called remedy does not even help.
SCHOOL SHOOTINGS are rare. Did you miss the word "school"? There are plenty of other murders and accidental deaths due to gun use. Requiring background checks is hardly going to impinge upon your right to bear arms, doofus.
Firefights are alwasy less accurate than shooting unarmed people. What you ignore is the shooter in the firefight becomes equally inaccurate, and while he is trading fire with a teacher he is not shooting unarmed kids.
Absolutely absurd. This is not a daily, weekly, or even yearly event. There is no reason to arm teachers. None. You have absolutely no evidence that it's necessary and none that it will be effective.
Why is it no other developed countries seem to have this issue?
This article, like so many before, presents the issue in a misleading way. No one is "arming teachers." No school district is "putting guns in the classroom." They are simply removing the blocks from allowing responsible teachers with proper training and certification to carry a weapon if they want. The article creates a false impression of putting teachers through a boot camp and then issuing them weapons. If this were the case I, too, would be opposed, but it isn't. The scatterbrained doofus who can't remember their computer password or to turn off the lights at the end of the day is not the sort of person who will have the discipline to do what is necessary to be certified to carry, nor are they likely to be interested in even trying.
Good point, a program like this is only for volunteers who are willing to be trained.
U can't be serious? The same people that can't remember their login for the pc is going to get a gun? Why don't we go ahead and get them some C4 explosives? Why go halfway? Let's blow up the whole building! How stupid!
If you believe that teachers are that incompetent, why do you trust your children to them?
I'm with you on that point. I'm pretty sure most teachers probably shouldn't be trusted with our kids these days.
And another idiot spews.
We have no security at our campus. We had five teenagers come onto our campus with the intent on taking a young girl away with them. One was noticed with a pistol. As the staff confronted on the rest ran. The staff all wished one of us were armed at the time as the local law enforcement was 15 minutes away. It was later found that it was an airpistol and they were taken into custody. We all wondered afterwards how many kids and staff he would have killed if it were a real gun.
The first time a classroom instructor uses his/her weapon against an unarmed student we'll be asking ourselves why anyone thought arming teachers was a good idea. The gun advocates have completely lost their minds!
The first time a classroom instructor uses his/her weapon against an armed intruder we'll be asking ourselves why anyone thought arming teachers was a bad idea. The gun fearers have completely lost their minds!
BTW, there is NOTHING today that prevents an unstable teacher from bringing a weapon into class. What makes you think that removing the legal barriers that prevent a responsible teacher from bringing their weapon will magically turn them into a gang banger?
Oh, please. How many school shootings like Newtown have occurred? They are extremely RARE. It is ridiculous to think it's necessary for schools to be armed camps. I wonder if you people always wear helmets when you ride bikes, have quit smoking and drinking around your kids, always wear a seat belt? Your kids are far more likely to be struck by a car crossing the street than they are to be shot by a gunman at school.
To hear you jokers tell it, your schools are all in the middle of a war zone and gun-toting intruders are just waiting to strike every single day. It's laughable. Why don't other developed nations have this need to arm schools? Why aren't there mass shootings in those countries?
Figure it out. It doesn't take a genius to see that we need fewer guns and less ammunition, not more.
They have done surveys of convicted felons in regards to fear of armed intended victims and 60% avoided committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed while 40% avoided it if they thought the victim "might" be armed. Facts are that the presence of guns tends to scare people off, even criminals. You don't have to put guns in the hands of all teachers but you should have the implied presence of guns. Quite a few people on this thread keep saying that we are not "in the dark ages"....true but I don't remember people back then defending their castles with a sign on it that says "catapult free zone". I just think that advertising that you are an easy target, in fact, makes you an easy target. Solve that problem and maybe these issues will fade a little. I guarantee that this will happen again, especially in any area that is considered a "gun free zone", since that seems to be the trend.
Ahhhhh ! ! ! - Such LOVELY and luscious lawsuiits there are going to be ! ! ! . Enough to tie up educational funding for a century ! ! ! . Pant, pant, pant ! !
Our entire nation needs to go to divorce court over the gun issue.
Yes- forget that states don't have the money for books, don't have the money to pay the teachers, don't have the money to give anyone the benefits they contracted for, don't have the money to build bigger schools or fix leaky roofs or clean up the mold problem – they somehow have the money to buy weapons!!! Yes! And the money to certify all teachers in weapons use and safety protocol!!! Go states!!! Forget the kids are there to actually learn something, let's make sure the teacher is armed and everyone is worried about someone coming in and shooting everyone.
It doesn't cost anything. All the states and school districts need to do is to stop preventing teachers or other school employees who already own guns and have already gotten licensed to carry them concealed from carrying them concealed in schools. If the school wants additional training, they can require the teachers or school employees to take that training at their own expense.
See. Problem solved at no cost to the school.
Give me a break!!!! I'm a teacher. Working with education does NOT involve guns and violence. Approaches such as arming teachers takes education back to the dark ages.
Okay, here's your break:
Whatever counter-measures currently in place in some schools are not enough; some not much better than a hope and a prayer.
As a teacher, it's safe to say you love your students. You would do almost anything for them to help them. In a tornado, you would probably shield them with your body if you could.
Now comes Adam Lanza part two. Are you going to cry out, "give me a break Adam, I'm only a teacher and we're not in the dark ages!". Adam is probably going to shoot you in the face and begin shooting your children afterwards.
If you were armed and trained, you would "at least" have a chance. A chance which is better than "no chance".
Remember, the consideration for teachers to carry is a fail-safe to ensure the children (and you) have a chance – that's all. If you are going to die in a school shooting, do you want to go down cowering in a corner or would you rather deliver a few shots to the chest and one to the head of the shooter first?
It is NOT, repeat NOT, repeat NOT, repeat NOT the teacher's job to be an armed officer of the law, any more that it is the armed officer's of the law job to teach ! ! !
Your incomprehensible position has ZERO merit ! ! ! . Now, BUG OFF ! ! !
It is not the teacher's job to protect the children entrusted to her care with armed force. However, some teachers are willing to go above and beyond the minimum requirements of their job. Some teachers take CPR and first aid training at their own expense to be ready to deal with an emergency in the classroom until the ambulance and paramedics get there. All I am saying is do not forbid teachers who are willing to go above and beyond the minimum job requirements to defend their children to do so if they are willing to spend their time and money to get that ability.
If you believe you would be a danger to others, then by all means do not get a gun. However, there are a significant portion of adults who are willing to extend their education by taking tactical firearm classes (only provided to people who can pass a background check). These adults, some who are also educators, can provide security for our children in the event of another mass murder attempt.
What really irks me about the naysayers is they are not wiling to give competent Americans the chance to save our kids lives. Instead they want to wring their hands and pull the covers over their heads and hope the monster will go away. So tell me again, which person is in the education dark ages? The one hiding under the covers or the one taking additional training so they know When, Where, Why and How to respond to a life or death threat? Education is the key.
There is NO reason to believe arming teachers will save lives and a lot of reason to think 1) tough budgets will go to arms & training instead of real education 2) loaded weapons in schools will be misused (in fact there is growing evidence that armed policemen in school actually provoke more violence than deter it) 3) some one or some kid in some school WILL get hold of a staff's weapon and turn it on staff & kids. Why bring your own in when you know there's one handy right there?
There is NO evidence of anyone's being armed in "defense" prevents violence or saves lives. There IS evidence that more people are harmed when someone is armed.
here is your evidence.Three times in my life and violence was prevented and no one got killed. They saw the gun. They ran or froze and the violent behavior stopped.
Your words are glib and plausible, but still : Absolutely WITHOUT merit of any kind at all ! ! !
No one is forcing anybody to arm themselves. But we should not stop good teachers from arming themselves for this needed protection. Even automatic weapons fire one bullet at a time. If a perpetrator is flanked by two or three armed teachers now they are out gunned because they can only shoot in one direction at a time. Criminals know this and that is why they will avoid armed confrontation when they can.
Schools are going to be spending millions to upgrade entry points and security systems to prevent shootings like the one that occurred in Newtown. Putting guns in the hands of school personnel will likely occur in a few red states. And not one of those measures will be able to prevent kids from being killed while they're out on the playground after lunch. Not one of them will matter if a nut with a gun decides to hijack a school bus during a field trip.
You can't protect anyone from every possible event. Arming teachers isn't going to make enough of a difference to be worth the risks such a move will entail.
"God chased out of schools"..people are funny. And this dude is supposed to be all powerful? That mortals can chase him out of anywhere? I guess that means when a Christian child is (silently) praying before a test, your God can't hear them. Well, considering back in the day this God couldn't tell Jewish children from non-Jewish that people had to paint blood above their doors to tell him, not surprised he can be chased out of schools. And you really believe this dude created the universe when he can't even stay in a school?
I don't understand, I'm pretty sure they aren't pushing that all teachers carry? We don't make a big deal about a gun being aboard an airplane for emergencies, why not a school. If there was at least 1 gun kept in a secured location with training for all teachers, I don't think anyone would really think about it on a daily basis. It would be there for an extra ordinary situation, at least to make our society feel a little safer. Yeah, I get the teacher killing student aspect but I'm pretty sure they wouldn't need a gun to carry that out or they would just bring an firearm with them to commit the crime. Morals are useful for the general public, they go out the door for the crazies and sometimes it takes someone to step up and meet them on their own playing field.
Why not at school?
Teachers are paid and trained to teach, period. That does not include engaging in gunfights in front of a class full of our kids.
Besides, weren't public employees like teachers only recently being dismissed as greedy, lazy thugs? And now they're going to be trusted as armed security guards?
Why not just put up a sign at the front office that says that there are armed personnel in the building? Doesn't have to be true to be a deterrent.
Why don't you gun nuts try that and see if it works?
It is always easy to say than do. your advice is great, in my opinion. however, the government or the administration just thinks something different from us. we will see whether their method would work. time will prove everything.
I CAN NOT wait when the teachers start shooting kids in school, they who are they going to armed
Well, to do this one would have to take the "there are no armed personel" sign down first. (AKA "Gun-free zone") And that's all we (gun nuts) want. It works for your house.
Guns in my house are kept unloaded, in a locked safe, with ammunition locked up in a separate location. This is what my home owner's insurance insists on or they won't cover us. Should we file a claim for anything at all, completely unrelated to weaponry, and they find that the gun policy has not been 100% followed, not only will they deny the claim, they will drop our coverage.
Because statistics show that access to weapons in the home are more likely to be the cause of violence in the home. Accidental shootings, accidental shooting of family members by people believing they are home invaders, having your own gun taken and used against you, pulling out the gun to threaten or have the last word in the heat of an argument among family or friends – those things all DO happen, and they happen often enough to be recorded for statistical purposes. There is NO statistical evidence showing that guns in the home save lives or prevent violence. If you accept the premise that guns don't kill people, you must also accept the premise that guns don't keep people safe. Only people can do that.
And they won't do it in schools by arming staff or teachers. They will only set up the likely scenario of people getting hurt.
My insurance has no requirement like that. you need new insurance.
It "works for your house"? Whose house? I don't live in a neighborhood where people get shot by the dozens in their homes on a daily basis, and I'll bet you don't either. To hear you people tell it, you have to arm yourselves to "protect" your homes-from what?
School shootings make big news because they are incredibly rare. There are millions of schools all over the country where nothing violent has ever happened. Why arm teachers to try to prevent something that has a minuscule chance of every occurring, and risk having an accidental shooting?
It's just a stupid idea all the way around.
That's the point Eeyore. You don't have a sign that says "Gun Free Zone" on your house. Why don't you put one up and see what happens? Or you are doing exactly what I said. "It works for your house". Over 1/3 of homes have guns in them. So if you don't, its a good bet one of your neighbors does. But a buglar doesn't know which house is safe. In any "gun free zone" like Chicago, or UK, or Australia the rate of break ins, home invasions, and violent crimes goes up, not down. http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/australia.html
I just love the logic of the libs here that comment on how few school shootings there are – indicating that there is no need for armed teachers. However, they will totally spin the argument the other direction when there is a school shooting and they want to ban nearly every gun on the planet if it could "just save one child". You can't have your cake and eat it too!
You're full of crap. Nobody is talking about banning all guns so stop your hyperventilating. They ARE talking about requiring background checks–and you'd think they were telling you that you had to cut off an arm! Why are you so opposed to such a small measure?
Why can't you answer the question posed? Why aren't other nations having this issue? Why don't they have nuts like you urging schools to allow teachers to carry guns? Why is that? What's different about those countries?
Can I just say this is the reason every other nation in the world beats our schools in math, science, and other testing scores? because we're more willing to give weapons to teachers than properly fund our school ?(which just might lower rates of certain mental instabilities that lead to school shootings.)
Though the measure seems kinda ridiculous, we have to accept it.
We provide more funding per student than any country in the world, money will not stop a shooter.
The shooter has to be confronted and either subdued or killed, more fundig will do neither.
Funding will not stop teacher kills her own students in classroom
No, bob, we don't. Schools are woefully underfunded compared to those in many other countries. School buildings are crumbling; materials are outdated or simply not provided at all in many of our inner-city schools.
I feel sorry for you all. Our schools are great where I live. Neat clean and well kept.
Without a protected, safe environment, no amount of teachers and spending will create an atmosphere that will allow learning. Base primal survival instinct is the most important concern.
Oh, nonsense. Why did the Newtown shooting make the news? Because these kinds of things so rarely occur. You seem to think that kids are cowering in fear under their desks on a daily basis. How ridiculous. They have a better chance of being hit by lightning than being shot in a mass killing spree at their schools. And they have a far better chance of being shot by accident in their own homes by a sibling, friend, or parent with a legally purchased gun owned by their parents. Don't be so hysterical.
What are going to do if the teachers the one shooting kids in classroom? S tu pid idea
You are so quick to point out stupidity.
Any teacher who would even think of shooting their own students could care less about laws preventing it, or the morality to consider it. That same teacher doesn't need a "school issue" firearm to do the dirty deed, they would simply bring their own "illegally carried" weapon onto school grounds and begin ending the life of one (or more) students. Or better still, rather than make loud gun-shot sounds, this same teacher will probably just bring in a samarai sword for show and tell and begin slicing off the heads of as many as they could before at least one student could get away to cry out for help.
Does all this sound stupid? Its the crux of your argument and it's the focus of all the arguments; criminal behavior DOES NOT care about law, process or procedure. Criminal is as criminal does; it is criminal.
Is a good, sane, caring teacher with a concealed firearm "still" a stupid idea?
You can say it, but it is clearly not true. We don't allow teachers to carry in nearly all schools. We used to allow it, back when we were the world leaders in education. I don't think there is a correlation there, but your suggestion of the opposite correlation is obviously false.
I am a high school teacher and I can tell you unequivocally that there is NO WAY I'm going to carry a gun. I won't model ignorant behavior for my students. By carrying a gun, I'd be legitimizing the paranoid, delusional part of society that lives in fear. I won't teach tolerance, either. I will teach your kids to love one another. It's the ONLY thing that is going to save us, as a nation. Not guns, air marshals, swat teams roaming the halls, metal detectors, etc. We have to change the culture in the same way we changed the culture in the 80s and brought down the rate of teen pregnancy. It still isn't perfect, but it's much better. And we can do better. We need moms and dads and teachers and police and (most of all) television and radio celebrities all saying the same thing- love one another. Want to save your kids? Stop the glorification of violence in the culture. Teach love. Teach peace. I do.
Idealist did know they were still around, However, you better start looking at the world for how it is. Some people want to kill, teaching love isn't going to change that. It is a nice thought I will admit, however, I been around the world and this country while I believe most people are good, evil is alive a well everywhere.
I just heard there was a teacher shot her own student in classroom.
Seriously? Have you ever been in the position of kill or be killed? Your position is uninformed and simplistic. I'm not an advocate of guns in the schools, but I am in favor of self-preservation above all. I can only assume that you will go to the front of the line, when your school is attacked, to show the gunman that your moralistic principles are more powerful than his gun.
Ron, I while I can appreciate your sense of self-preservation as top-priority, I don't know that my life is that important in the grand scheme of things- it's about what kind of a society we want to have. Here in my school, someone put a sign on the door to the teachers' room that said, "Students, knock before you enter." I had to add "Please" to that sign. We can't expect a polite society if we think we're above it. We have to model it. We have to be the change we want to see in the world, to borrow the expression of my hero. If we want a civil society, it can't be all about me and my self-preservation, it needs to be about a higher law.
Marc, those in favor of teachers being allowed to carry don't want you to carry. There are plenty of teachers now who already have concealed carry permits, who already carry in their daily lives when not at school. And they don't go "psotal" at the drop of a hat. Permit holders have a lower rate of crime than no permit holders. If you're not comfortable with guns, that's fine. We are very happy that you choose not to carry.
And, Marc, I agree with the rest of your sentiment. Certainly we should teach love. Certainly we should strive for a society in which all people have good will. However, unless we are willing to submit to anyone who doesn't feel that way, some of us should be prepared for defense. By all means, work towards a society where madmen don't burst into classrooms with guns blazing. But here and there, a madman will. Be loving with your students, but don't deny the rest of us the right to protect them.
The first kid to be accidentally shot by a teacher will explain why this is such a bad idea. Or when i student accidentally gets a hold of a gun in a classroom. How stupid are people?
Agreed. And now you'll have some random crazy teachers with children under threat – they can threaten children that they have a gun. (Naive to think this won't happen.) I am a teacher and I know many teachers who are too unstable to have guns! And some are decent teachers, but very emotionally unstable and not people I want to see with guns in my workplace. The grounded ones won't want the guns because they will see how destabilizing the situation is! And who will cover the liability? You shoot the wrong person, or weren't actually under risk of death (kid has fake gun or pretend action) and end up not being legally justified to shoot the person (visitor, co-teacher, student, intruder, etc.)???? Who will go on trial – the school district that mandated the gun? The NRA? The teacher? Who? Taxpayers will pay for it, people will end up dead, etc. And isn't this an insult to law enforcement who go through years of careful training to understand the law and maintain their ability? Isn't most of their gun training situational? How to make those split-second life of death decisions? Now teachers have to be trained to that level? "Murica".
Good question how stupid are people? "I would say very stupid" parents get up every day and send their precious little children to schools that have "ZERO security or protection. The only thing missing is the sign out in front of the school that reads come on in and kill as many as you can we offer know way of protecting anyone inside this building. If your life's goal is to see how many PRECIOUS CHILDREN AS YOU WISH YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE.!!!!
I Hate the thought that we even have to have this conversation. I absolutely HATE the thought of arming anyone inside our schools. I hate the thought of anyone feeling the need to own or carry a firearm to protect them selves or their families, But even more than that I truly hate the thought that we live in a world today requires us to do just that. The fact has become in order to stop as much killings as possible in our schools today is to TRAIN AND TRAIN AND TRAIN SOMEMORE, OUR SCHOOLS STAFFS. I am sorry but having one armed guard or police officer per school will not do what needs to be done. It is a shame but since our nation as a whole has turned our backs on the one and only one whole can and would protect our children our LORD AND "SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST we must turn to protecting our children our selves. Since we have chased GOD out of our schools we are left with very few choices. We have become very successful in chasing God out and opening the doors to every type of evil possible to come in and do as they please. That my friend is what has caused all these horrible things to take effect all across our country.
You know what, Terry? If your writing is an example of the kind of education you got and your kids are getting, arming teachers isn't what we need to worry about. You are barely literate. THAT'S a far bigger and more widespread problem in this country than are school shootings.
Terry, if your "god" can be chased out of schools, he's not powerful enough to do anything about anything. Get it through your head: prayer has NEVER been banned in school or anywhere else. Children are free to pray in their classroom or anywhere else. Or are you one of those hypocrites who has to let everyone HEAR you praying?
I don't think you would need an armed teacher at every school.
Just post a sign on all the doors of every school that warn:
75% of the schools in this county have armed teachers or security guards.
Guess which one this is.
The one I would not send my kids to.
If this ever come to pass, it will be the day I finally revoke my American Passport and just stick with being a "pasta eating, lady man" EU citizen. This gun culture in the US is simply out of the times and ignorent in my opinion.
You Americans must see how crazy this sounds to the rest of the world right? The idea of a teacher being responsable to shoot off offenders is ridiculous. If guns weren't so prevalant in your society you wouldn't need these extreme measures. Even teachers in Afghanistan and Pakistando not carry a gun and they are really under threat. Grow up and get some gun regulations. It is not a human right to own a gun.
Thank you!! and some of Americans do realize this haha. When we look at countries like the UK, where strict gun laws have restricted the posesion of gun by private citizens, we see fewer gun related crimes.
And yet not "fewer crimes". Isn't that the goal? 31/1000 in the UK compared to 16/1000 in the US when looking at violent crimes.
We Americans are very happy to not be you. It is most definitely an American right to be armed. It is also a human right to defend oneself. How does a small woman or an elderly man defend against a violent attacker who uses a knife, a club, or just fists? Only a gun will allow the average person to defend against brutes. If you prefer the days of cavemen, enjoy.
Do you know that half of the women murdered in this world are killed by the own (ex)-partners?
The mother of Adam Lanza had guns in her house? I suppose the plan was to protect herself against so-called intruders. But what happened? Her son shot her with the guns and then went on a killing spree.
I suppose that Reeva Steenkamp felt very safe because her boyfriend had a lot of guns to protect her, she is dead.
Not to far away from where I live, a jeweller had a gun to protect himself, the criminals who invaded his shop took the gun of him, fled and used it to kill a woman for her car.
In my country there are strict gun control laws. Sometimes violent crime happens, you cannot prevent them all. But the less weapons there are, the better.
What of armed teachers in Israel? Is there a survey of what countires allow armed school personnel or have armed security?
But teachers in Israel do carry guns. Not all teachers, but enough to deter the attacks on school children that were increasing before they adopted the armed teacher policy. It seems to have worked to where terrorists not choose different targets.
Yeah because instead we have no guns and wepon free zones at schools so when someone with a gun does enter, we have to call and wait for help, usually someone with a gun like the police show up when its too late.. By then its too late.
Arming teachers is ludicrous. I say this as a teacher myself.
Hiring at least one security officer per school is going to be a lot cheaper than the cost of a single lawsuit when an angry teacher shoots a student or when a student gets their hands on a teacher's gun.
You would need a security guard at each entrance for each building to be effective...otherwise security guard will be at entrance A as madman is walking into a classroom...having gone through one of the other entrances...not so cheap.
OK, hire multiple guards. Post them wherever you like, preferably inside the building, so they can't get shot by the spree shooter on their way into the school.
In any case, it doesn't change the fact that arming teachers is a terrible idea.
The armed teachers will act as a deterrent..besides .when was the last time a teacher flipped out? For your solution to work we d need schools to be a hell of a lot better funded than they currently are. Most are already struggling for funds.
Spoken like a true Republican. Spare no expense for the lives of our children. Children will continue to die because of Tornadoes and gun nuts, so that the GOP can save our tax money for their ongoing political circus. This is a foolish money wasting proposal. No lives will be saved.They want to steal money from schools and not give them a penny more.They do not have our children's best interests in mind.
Im not a republican.....Im liberal leaning on social programs.
But I have absolutely no illusions about people.
Your comment on tornados and kids is not well thought out. Tornados are relatively small storms that kill very few people every year. Even in Oklahoma these storms kill few people. The tax payers have to spend their resources ( tax money) on things that have to be fixed now. You think like a typical democrat who thinks we have unlimited resources. This kind of thinking is why states like California and Illinois are in such bad financial shape.
If a resource officer is on one side of the school, and a shooter is on the other side of the school, how long will it take the officer to show up?
Mr. Benner is right. Until we can fix the illness in our society that causes a nut to kill 20 children we will need to arm the teachers, janitors, admins,... Even if we have many armed guards at a school we could never have enough of them. The cops could never respond in time to these incidents. Look at what happened at newton or that college where some nut killed 33.
The sickness in our society is that in the 1970s we shut down the mental hospitals and made it difficult or impossible to confine paranoid schizophrenics against their will even when they are obviously a danger to others and/or themselves.
I live in a country with strict gun control laws. We had a guy invade a classroom last year, he wanted to confront the teacher with an axe, you know because buying a gun is difficult. There were no victims. I often wondered what would have happened if our laws were less strict and he could have easily bought a gun.
Also I haven't heard anyone talking about more security.
So far when a lunatic shows up armed to the teeth and intending to kill, it hasn't gone too awfully well for teachers/kids because....wait for it, ...ONLY THE MADMAN IS ARMED...it cant get any worse than that...
I say arm them all...maybe they can down the azzhat before many (any?) die.
"Arm them all?"
Might as well give guns to all the students, too.
Do you really think that arming everyone 24/7 will save lives?
And yes I do.
Its no coincidence that these lunatics target schools.....its where they can cause the most harm with minimal risk.
some–not all will..but some will rethink their BS if they can get their azz shot off before they can wrack up a body count.
It would be like the cold war all over again, but instead of a nuclear deterrent we'd have arms in everyone's hands to stop violence. The question then becomes who will fire the first shot.
Well right now we have teachers and kids dying with alarming frequency..... what we have is unacceptable...
putting the genie back in the bottle is simply wishful thinking as far as guns go. We seem to be unwilling to fund schools in general and tacking on security costs will only make it rougher going.
Id be great is we were all civilized...but we are human..and we run the full spectrum. We don't fund mental health facilities, we don't fund education the way we should – two elements that would do more toward ending not just gun violence but violence as a whole than banning weapons....Instead tens of millions go to guys like Karzai, billions flow out to Egypt, Israel, Pakistan etc..
We need to radically change how we operate....the Elites have to start focusing on us...the American people.
until then we need to give teachers a chance to freaking defend themselves! wake the F up already!
Just to add:
I live in a heavily armed region of the nation. we have far less crime than most areas....we have a much greater respect for firearms...and apparently a greater respect for each other.
as for students attacking teachers...those type are your bullies...and usually the first to back down from a threat...they don't want to get hurt themselves.
The sad fact of humanity is that mutually assured destruction is the most successful equalizer we ve come up with.
if the politicians balk at textbooks and supplies, they aren't going to be any better at funding security.
and I live in NYC and we have less gun crime per capita than your podunk town. Your firsthand experience narrative is irrelevant in this discussion because it doesn't qualify as legitimate empirical evidence in any way shape or form.
NYC bans guns outright...and STILL has a higher gun violence rate (read per 100000) than my region (N.Idaho)...so no it most certainly does not.
Idaho gun ownership 55% gun related murders .8 per 100k
New York State 18% gun related murders 2.7 per 100k - with NYC running at 4.3 per 100k
Yeah dk, that was a stupid comment. NYC, really? I live a town over from Sandy Hook and I know before the incident, they had a ridiculously low crime rate....so region doesn't really matter. Picture is funny as hell has a good point, the area with more legal firearm presence will generally have a better respect for firearms. NYC has a ban, so all firearms that filter in are in the hands of criminals. It's like a criminal heaven because I would think it would be pretty easy pickings. If I was a criminal living in an area where I suspect 1 in 3 people carry a firearm....I would move to a metro area so that I don't get shot mugging someone.
Should we be concerned?
should we be concerned
So teachers are immune to bad days and losing their minds? We hope.... Nothing like a locked room full of children with an adult wielding a gun....
Really tell us all Mr. LOL the last time a teacher took out a classroom full of kids ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
If teachers begin carrying guns to school en masse, I guarantee you that you will begin to see reports of teachers shooting kids either out of anger or questionable acts of self defense. Things sometimes get heated in school.
What if a fight breaks out between two students, the teacher tries to break it up, and one of the students then elbows, hits, or completely turns on the teacher? You are going to end up with a dead student, when otherwise you'd have some busted lips and bruised egos.
I am a teacher and I do not support arming teachers. Keep guns restricted to school resource officers.
People with permits to carry a concealed weapon have a lower rate of criminal behavior that the over all population. They also have a lower rate of crime than police officers or teachers. Allow teachers who have gotten a license to carry a concealed weapon to be armed at school and the chances of your nightmare scenario are reduced to nearly nothing because the crazy teachers you are worried about will not qualify.
It would have to be strictly voluntary on the part of the teacher. And it would have to require the maximum in defensive handgun training. One thing that could help in deterring or at least helping is that doors to classrooms are secured from the inside, and I dont mean a manual lock with the use of a key. If your going to put a window to see out to the hallway, than use 1 inch thick bullet resistant plexiglass. Its not about taking guns away from everyone its about protecting those we love from those who should not have them. I am a gun owner, If you think for one min. I will give up my means of protecting my family and have to resort to a stick, baseball bat or a rake you have lost your mind.
1. Ever heard of the police coming to a school to arrest a teacher?
Nothing like making sure the teacher can take hostages and shoot it out with the police.
2. Of course the gun will be under lock and key, right. So, if some nut comes into the classroom with an assault weapon and starts shooting... how long will it take for the teacher to find the key and get the gun? Too long.
3. Ever heard of a student breaking into a school to steal? There's nothing quite like finding a treasure trove of guns.
4. Oh... the teacher has the gun in her/his purse/holster... A student takes it away from her/him and goes on a shooting spree. Nothing like making sure a violent student has ready access to a weapon.
The NRA is nuts, run by nuts, for nuts.
Thank you for the common sense. Unfortunately, some folks in the NRA lack it.
James, I find your scenario contradicting. You claim that if a teacher carried a gun and tried to break up a fist fight between students then the student could potentially take the gun from the teacher and use it. At the same time you have no problem with security officers carrying guns. In my experience (full time high school teacher for 10 years) most fights happen in the court yards or cafeteria and are broken up by ...ARMED SECURITY GAURDS! Under your scenario couldn't the student just as easily take the gun of an armed security officer as easily as an armed teacher? ( Remember, just like teachers, security gaurds come in all shapes, sizes, ages and genders).
When you consider the training it takes to become an educator, receiving training is what teachers do. We are trained in our subject area, we are trained in strategies of classroom management, in teaching methods and learning styles, in working with students with special needs, ect.Training is what we do. What's wrong with a handful of us at each school receiving proper training to better protect our students by carrying a concealed fire arm?
The current method of dealing with a school shooting is a complete joke. It does not prevent or deter a shooting spree, it only attempts to minimize casualties. The teacher is required to lock the door, turn off the lights, and hide in the corner with their students and hope they don't shot through the windows or break into the room. All you can really do is hope that its not your school, and if it is, you hope that it doesn't start or find its way into your classroom. I'd give my life to protect my students, but I'd rather be alive holding a gun then dead as a martyr.
Dumbest thing I ever heard,
its a lawsuit waiting for a tragedy.
I am retired military and teaching, I would not hand a weapon to
the majority of personnel in the schools.
Many outside the schools say it should be done, but how about paying those who are designated to carry extra, you can call it combat pay: this would help them pay for training, weapons, ammo, and legal assistance in the event of an accident.
So its just about handing a weapon to a teacher huh. You want to talk about the dumbest thing I ever heard. L-e-o-p-a-r-d.......END OF SERMON
Thanks for taking the conversation down to the lowest common denominator and showing your capacity for complex logical thought and philosophical discussion.
The fact is that even in a crisis situation with a shooter, even the Police suffer from panic and fear. They are supposed to be trained to carry weapons and handle a dangerous situation. Every gun advocate thinks that in an extreme situation they are going to turn into some super solider because they carry a gun. It simply is not the case. A teacher spends most of her/his time nurturing, teaching, instructing, and guiding our children. You cannot be so naive to think that in the middle of story time (for very young students) the teacher will get up from her chair, whip out her firearm and blast away the "bad guy" on a moments notice without blinking an eye? That is simply naive. Even Police officers who train with firearms can be immobilized with fear in a shooter situation where someone can get you from any direction and you don't know where they are coming from. Yes, the likelihood is high that a teacher could shoot someone and prevent more deaths in the process, but at what cost does this come? It is just as likely that the teacher herself will be killed and her gun used to kill more innocent people. If those odds are 50/50, are you willing to gamble with your life or your kids' lives? a 50/50 chance? When there are other things that could be done?
How about locking the doors in a school and having better surveillance equipment and practices? How about safety/emergency preparedness programs for schools and police to work on together? How about some more common sense solutions?
Facts are facts: More guns equals more death by guns. If you don't have a problem with that then you are gambling that it is not your life that is going to be affected by that statistic.
It's not about shooting back. Its about deterrent. The areas of America with the highest rate of gun ownership always has the lowest crime rates. Whats your solution? Make the gun free zone signs bigger?
I think you could be wrong where your stats are concerned, most of the people in neighborhoods, who do have guns are the criminals, because people like you make it so easy for them to get their hands on them.
move on people, just a broken record playing someone else's talking-points on repeat.
I'm all for locking the doors...but if someone is trying to break into the room or shoot the lock out, how about being able to shoot back?
Now that we know what the teacher looks like and where she works, I guess it wouldn't be all that hard for someone to track her down and take her gun from her. Now that she is carrying a gun, she cannot possibly be afraid or overpowered, right?
I have another question to put out there for response: As a parent, don't I have a right to know if my kids are going to be spending their day with someone in possession of a loaded weapon? Do I get to know if the teacher is armed and do I have a choice in the matter?
The INSTANT a teacher murders a student with a gun, the NRA will cease to be any kind of player in our lives. The multi billion if not trillion dollar law suit will end them.
Even if the leader of the NRA goes of a shooting spree in a daycare center the NRA would still survive. They are THE most powerful lobby group in the USA. IT is a sick culture that unfortunately won't be going anywhere soon, they have too much money and redneck support. Republicans often complain about minorities with loud voices (ie. gays, women, hispanics) but the gun lobbyists are also a minority with not just loud threatning voices, but armed to the teeth.
Apparently it is not just rednecks.
Arm them all, it will be a funny story about 20 teachers that hunted each other down, thinking the other one was the gunman
It seems that people are having some reservations about arming personnel at schools, I think that it is sadly a sign of the times. However we do need to make plans about how to deal with an armed assailant. I am out in a small Oregon town and directly next to the school is a gun store, and a Bar. The owner of the store is more of a collector, of single, and double action hand guns, and most "Wheel guns" He also has a large assortment of hunting rifles... I am perhaps the closest responsible individual, that has enough capacity to take on an armed assailant, and would do so if needed. Only one fly in the ointment, my other neighbor, a Sheriffs Deputy, would consider me as the threat since I don't have any plan in place to help. We all need to help make contingency plans about how we could help. Also the fastest response that I have seen has been ten minutes, I am disabled, but I could be there faster. I would be a target of the assailant and the Sheriff, when they do finally arrive. And it could be a great help if all citizens, like myself could assist law enforcement , out here where normal patrols are somewhat rare. I think that I have as much fire power as any assailant could and God help him if I get there first, providing my presence is expected. We have Volunteer Firemen, why not reserve security? Given my location, it could save quite a lot of lives. And yes I do have a disability, Fibromyalgia, but I endure that kind of pain constantly, you would be amazed how quickly I can move for short distances, while under fire, or when others are at risk. In Oregon we are allowed to "open carry", and I already do that, I could help. Providing we had made arrangements in advance. It's the smartest thing I can think of, but it would require a very open mind on the part of Law Enforcement, I believe that citizens have the ability and the duty to help if they can.
I returned to see how many good ideas people had come up with to solve the problem. However what I have read makes me sick, people calling others names and revealing their hateful state of mind. Those of you that are willing to give up freedom for safety, deserve neither. These people are not Americans, since they are not constructive in their comments, they just reduce things to hateful, snide, stupid name calling. They can't be trusted, and a solution is not their aim, derisive commentary is what they are good at, but not peacemaking
Heh, funny. A few months ago public employees like teachers were considered incompetent, greedy thugs. Now there's a proposal to arm them with deadly weapons in rooms full of our kids.
Arming teachers is the best way to protect our children. Do they need to be trained, yes, do they need to be evaluated, yes, so with all that in mind why not? People post on here talking about how a teacher will have a screw loose, but those are the ones that will never make it through the evaluations. Also if a teacher has a screw loose and wants to start a rampage chances are they are going to have no problem getting passed school security if there even is one and bring a gun in.
The only person that can stop someone with a gun is a good person with a gun.
So background checks for teachers with guns but not background checks for those who would come in and shoot up a school?
Because that makes PERFECT sense.
So, we didn't need to do this twenty years ago but we do now? I'd say that is perfect evidence of a devolving society.
What about unstable teachers hiding their instability behind their positions of authority. I've known quite a few in both suburban and inner city schools. Think of the headlines. Angry teacher with gun loses control! I can see it now. Let's blame it on teacher burnout or low pay, not on the idiots who allowed the teacher the gun. -a teacher's view
More guns in smaller and increasingly crowded classrooms. What could go wrong?
Any excuse to carry a gun.... Forget the fact that of all the teachers who arm up, one of them will have screw loose. And probably more than one of them will 'forget' to put the gun out of reach of a curious child.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
C'mon people...register the guns. All of them. And let's pour some serious money into treating our mentally ill.Focus on treating each person with respect and consideration, as in stop the bullying, stop the hate. Teach love and respect.There is a better way to deal with gun violence...find it. You are smarter than is! Really you are!
Well said, We need a culture of respect for all.
The Utopia you seek is a nice thought. You keep working on your Utopia "peacekovingperson", but I don't want my child to be a part of the learning curve to get there. I'll take the odds I get with armed, responsible, trained adults protecting my child. That's what she gets with me all the hours she's not in school.
I live in Massachusetts and I vote Democrat. I think training and arming any teacher who volunteers to conceal carry in school, so as to defend their students, is a very good idea. I think any U.S. Citizen with a valid firearm's permit should be allowed to conceal carry across all 50 States. I have only ever known firearms to be good and useful things, and the people I know who carry them to be responsible, law-abiding people.
William – you can come out of the closet now.
I know. I have a personal policy that unless asked directly if I own a firearm I don't volunteer that information. Which can be a little frustrating, at times. I am a member of the NRA. Being very Liberal, I tend to hang in Liberal circles. At dinner parties, especially now, discussion about gun control will come up and some people will say that the NRA is evil and an arm of the Republican party. When actually I know it's neither of those things. The NRA has never once asked me about my party affiliation, and every bit of reading material they've ever sent me has been either about defending the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights or promoting training in the safe and responsible operation of firearms. All of which is very admirable, in my opinion. But I don't speak up, only because it would tip my hand that I own a firearm. My owning a firearm is very prIvate to me and known only by a select few and those down at the gun club. To go around and tell people that I own a firearm would seem to me like boasting. I don't own it to be cool. I own it because I have a very proud family history of firearms and I enjoy target shooting with it. I do write to my legislators though, expressing my pro-gun beliefs. 9 letters, since March.
This country is hopeless. Woo hoo for reverse evolution!
The United States is a proud gun carrying culture. Democrats and New Englanders too!
– The NRA currently claims about 5 million members. Now I couldn't find any numbers, and since they've never asked about my party affiliation perhaps there aren't any, but lets round down real low and say... if only 1% of the NRA were Democrat, that's still more than the total membership of the anti-gun group the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which claims about 30,000 members.
– In Massachusetts, the largest civil rights organization is GOAL, The Gun Owners' Action League.
– The firearm companies Colt, Kahr, Mossberg, Ruger, Seecamp, Sig, Charter, Smith & Wesson, Stag... all manufacture firearms in New England.
Wow, what a hero you are. Keep defending your right to carry a weapon designed to kill, because it's tradition. F your tradition, I want my kids not to be shot at school.
That Bond guy needs to get his thumb out of his ass. The NRA has offered to train anyone who will carry a Firearm in the schools. I don't think he realizes that the NRA is the government that the United States of America needs. I would trust the NRA to train anyone for the use of a Firearm in an emergency. I am for Firearms in the State of Ohio and in our Schools. My children will never go to public school unless there is armed protection there. I was home schooled, the best way to go. If the Schools actually taught the right things, the right history, the respect of relationships, the knowledge of handling money, and to Trust and Follow the Laws God and our Founding Fathers have put in place.
You could have saved us all the trouble of reading that by simply posting, "I am a nutball".
Ya well you sure aren't going to stop some punk with a gun by throwing pencils at them. People who expect society to protect them are delusional and usually victims.
People don't understand that the "TREAT" that one or more of the teachers MAY be armed will PREVENT our schools being targets!
The bad guy KNOWS if he shows up at a school with gun(s) he can do what he wants because no one can stop him!
If teachers may be armed he has to worry about which teacher / employee.. He may just think again and pick a "softer target" or at minimum not just walk the halls shooting at any thing he likes doing major damage before law enforcement can arrive!!
You won't consider it much of a "TREAT" when a teacher kills a kid unnecessarily.
I don't think these nutcases who are showing up at schools and movie theaters, shopping mall really think about anything. In fact they more likely have a death wish and don't care if anyone else has a gun or not. More guns, more people killed; shootout at OK corral.
You people act like guns in schools weren't heard of. Not that long ago kids would bring their rifles to class, both men and women, for shooting activity purposes. No one questioned whether or not we had any dignity as a society.
When and where was this ever a common occurrence?
Dave, my high school in Tampa in the 60s and 70s had a gun club with a faculty sponsor. My yearbook has a photo of the club members posing with rifles on school grounds.
Okay, there's one school 40 years ago. Anyone else?
In the 70's it was uncommon to see a truck that did not have a gun in its rack in my high school parking lot. It was not a rural school either. No one was ever shot.
It still goes on today at some schools. Guns in school is nothing new to those who know the past.
Dave, you can be fairly certain that if my high school in a fairly large city in Florida was doing it, then it was happening at many other schools out west and in the rural south.
I used to routinely park my truck in the highschool parking lot with a loaded 22LR rifle in the back window. Never had a problem. This was in the early 1990s.
My uncle told me he used to take his 22 rifle to school on the bus on days when he had a shooting club after school. He went in the 60s I believe.
I went to school in the 60's and 70's and I can assure you that anyone driving around town with a gun in their back window was automatically labeled a g– d- f-- redneck.
It wasn't school, but for me summer camp. Sleep-away summer camp in the 80's, on Lake Winnipisaukee, in NH. They had a .22 rifle program. I remember going into the gun shack, signing out a rifle, cartridges, a paper target, and carrying all that down the trail to the range. And I was 11 years old. 11 years old I was! How is that possible? Because responsible people taught me to be responsible and then gave me an opportunity to be responsible.
Why is it everytime someone mentions Sarah Palin I think of slope-headed inbreds with more guns than teeth? Trailer trash goobers who wear beany-copter hats and drink out of mason-jars. Low lifes whose idea of a night out is taking their cousin to a Chick-fil-A. ( I also think of nascar )
Probably because you are stereotyping.
Easy to make fun of people when you have a massive societal infrastructure that allows you the time to sit around and be proud of your genetic and intellectual prowess. Now, I find Palin and her devotees as annoying as the next person, but "palintwit" – if the ultimate bad outcome of the Rapid Climate change (that I'm betting you and I believe in) comes to pass, you'll be at the mercy of those "slope headed in-breds with more guns than teeth." Mostly, because they'll know how to feed themselves. If you're lucky you'll be working for me in that possible near future. At least we'll have some things we can agree on. Remember people, the grocery store is just the place they drop the food off. They don't grow it there. Rednecks are better equipped to survive the ransacked Kroger.
just laughed my coffee all over my monitor..thanks for the visual!
The rate that school shootings occurs does not warrant this action. They do happen but they are A) Very rare if you look at them in terms of how many schools there are and how many shootings there are and B) Almost never "mass shootings" a la Adam Lanza or Columbine; they usually are either a suicide or an incident between two people which no amount of armed presence is going to stop. There is no more of a need for armed guards or armed teachers in school than there is a need for them in your own house.
It astounds me that people are so easily manipulated that they think this is necessary. It's like when Jaws came out and people were certain that sharks were suddenly attacking people more often.
Yep lets just let a couple of kids die and brush it off because of how rare it happens, better yet let's just put out an open season sign on schools so psychopaths with a grudge can just walk right in. Man, you are brilliant.
Gun at school!! I hope the teachers or whoever keeps it stores it in a failsafe lockbox
Putting guns in the hands of teachers is no more than a set-up for teachers to get killed.
..Just imagine a GUN FIGHT in a 1st grade class...........What could possibly go wrong...?
I think I would rather see a gunfight than a bunch of children shot while they cower in a closet.
How can you have a gun fight with only the teacher having the gun?
Those nasty kids will listen now.....
if a teacher is trained, the first thing that teacher is going to do is fire a warning shot, and like most cowards, that what this people are that do these school shootings, they will do one of 2 things most of the time. they will either run and shot themself. So, one bullet, fired as a warning, stops a person from killing kids in a school. hmmm i think that make common sense. but people will still argue it.
I do not think you have a clue as to what you're talking about, much less how to express yourself in a coherent way.
Personally I'd probably give the person killing kids and trying to kill me at least 3 or 4 warning shots before I shot them.
A warning shot is stupid and dangerous. A person in the civilian world should only fire a shot to stop the threat as fast as possible. Cranking off a shot that may end up anywhere, particularly in a school, is a thing only a moron would do. No matter your aim, you have no way of knowing where that irresponsible shot that was let off will end up. Only a moron would seriously train others to take a warning shot in a school, or anywhere.
If they are trained THERE IS NO WARNING SHOT!
I'd give them three warning shots to center mass and one to the forehead.
What I don't understand is why most people assume that the weapons that may be introduced in schools fire lead or jacketed bullits. Anyone who has been hit by a paintball can attest to how much it hurts. Why not shoot rubber bullets, after they are successful at crowd control. This is only a suggestion as to non-lethal deterants.
That makes no sense, people in a crowd rioting have no guns on them and there intent is not to kill but to cause havoc. These people who shoot up shools intend to kill and will only get upset and cause more harm if they are only hurt by a paintball or rubber bullet.
What an IDIOTIC response
TO BE OR NOT TO BE? OR WHAT DO I DO IN CASE AN INTRUDER COMES IN? - That is the question! But here are my suggestions.
I am against teachers being armed because it may expose kids and other staff to guns and further violence. For example, WHAT IF the teacher gets overcome by an intruder.. or WHAT IF the teacher forgets the gun in his/her purse or desk and someone crazy gets it or totes it or just play with it...or WHAT IF it is the teacher who becomes crazy and hostages kids... The more guns there are, the more exposed we are to violence and crime. I suggest you do it like we do in the Philippines. Not saying we have perfect security in all regions, but it is cost-effective and more importantly, it works to curtail violence and crime: 1) Hire security guards, people who can and are licensed to handle guns and ammunition or 2) Put authorized personnel on gates or entrances of buildings to inspect vehicles, IDs, luggage or bags..and have codes in place for dire occurrences as emergencies or threats.. Treat an intruder as an enemy or attacker particularly when they are armed. Further suggestions: 1)Train teachers and other school staff as well as kids on simple self-defense. 2) Train kids on how to cope with different types of emergencies such as when there are intruders, fires, earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.. 3) Conduct drills and 4) provide emergency exits and put signs on them.. 4)Secure all entrances or exits– in case of emergencies.. designate one staff as guide for each classroom or building exit. 5) Appoint/assign a Sergeant at Arms or maybe a leader for each group/ or each class, and conduct briefings and drills ever so often 6) Train students teachers and staff how to use/recognize codes or symbols in case they aren't able to talk or speak with each other when an intruder comes. For example, RED – means DANGER or STOP, YELLOW for Do not Panic or WAIT Green for ok to go or Pink – to remain CALM, or maybe violet to duck, or get on the floor, etc.. 7) Provide CCTV or cameras in schools. SECURE schools EVERYDAY- also sports arenas/not only during big events. Put in place an emergency button – like they use in banks –or hospital rooms – that can be sounded or lighted in each classroom or office by authorized or designated staff. AS THE OLD SONG GOES... ~~ You should know by now...~~
Your explanation and position do not make sense.
Let me get this straight: you believe that isolating children from 'guns and further violence' by making the weapon and concept of the weapon more terrifying than it is.
That is a common misconception. 'Fear of the name only increases fear of the thing itself' Think about it.
When you put that much focus on a weapon and tabooing it heavily as you appear to be, irrational fear will take over any form of logic.
a weapon is a tool, it is the person using it that is the danger.
Your... list.. has a few flaws when logic and reality checks are taken into consideration. Your block text gives me a headache, so I'll make an actual list.
1- Most schools are underfunded and understaffed. They are not going to be able to spare the resources to hire 12-hour security for entire building (3-4 officers at any given time)
2- We are talking about schools, not prisons. That's the fastest way to make the system fail before it begins. "treat an intruder as an enemy or attacker" You have no idea how dangerous that particular 'idea' is.
3,4.1,4.2,6,7- when was the last time you've been at a school? They already have these drills and codewords, some as simple as "set out your trash for the garbagemen"
5- Actually, this is a decent idea: assign a peer to play a leadership role for the class to help lead the class while the teacher arms him/herself for when they may/may not need to retaliate.
Wow. This is going to end well...
Armed amateurs making split second decisions in the matter of life and death? I'm glad I don't live there.
Can you imagine the circus that would ensue if a white teacher shot a black kid who wasn't actually presenting a danger worthy of lethal force?
Let me start by saying that I am grateful that I do not reside in Ohio or have my children in an Ohio School. As a 28-Year Law Enforcement Executive, Founder of the National Association of School Resource Officers (NASRO) and current Executive Director of the School Safety Advocacy Council (SSAC) I find it amazing that their are those out there that feel if we bring more guns to school, we will somehow reduce gun violence! The idea that somehow going to the pistol range to fire at a few still targets will prepare a school staff member to address all the dynamics that go into effectively dealing with an "Active Shooter" is alarming. But then again, it must be Ohio thinking, as the Ohio Attorney General's Office recently decided it was a good strategy to have young students attack armed intruders! So now we will begin arming teachers and ask police officers who are responding to a call at a school where someone is armed to have to make split second decisions as to who the good armed people are, versus the bad armed suspects? Then again, wasn't it an Ohio School Board that just months ago proposed arming their custodians and having them trained as "onsite SWAT Team Members" ready to take down armed students? What is next Ohio? Perhaps give every student a gun, that will surely make a shooter think twice! Curtis S. Lavarello, Executive Director (School Safety Advocacy Council)
Police aren't there when something like a school shooting happens. Someone has to be there to protect the students.
Nice résumé Curt, looking for a new job perhaps? Your argument from authority doesn't really work for me and could the Antis please stop taking your argument to the all too illogical "What's next, arm all infants?" tact. It's not more guns in schools, it's more good people with a chance to stop the threat. Even the best trained can't be prepared for all the dynamics of an active shooter. Sure they'll know more and be better equipped, but the bottom line is they won't be THERE. I'll take someone with an effective tool and some training, that's willing to make a difference over a phone call to 911 and a hope that it all just works out OK. The best gun is the one you have with you and the best response to a threat is the one closest at hand. Good luck with your job search, Curt.
The day a school enters my school, I'm out. NO WAY will I work in an education environment where a school is used to "take someone down". Then again, I'm a Canadian...
'a school enters my school'....canadian
Canadian here, disregard the nonsensical nature of that comment. I have to say though, "school enters my school" did make my morning.
not over the top at all......Surprised CNN didn't name her Maggs Battleboot or something....
CNN wants to get the guns away from the people, I get that.....but using cheap tactics just makes people distrust your cause....
What kind of invirment is this for our children ?everyone is talken about guns,Has enyone thought about a generation of chidren going to school that is filled with guns?
Don't underestimate your teachers. Not all teachers are soft weak bodied academia types. There are those that have even served in our military. With good training and conditioning any person can become proficient with the use of a firearm. A firearm becomes an extension of the person carrying it. If an armed assailant came into my classroom, I would want more than a book to throw at him. I would want to meet the assailants force with equal or greater force. I would hate that feeling of helplessness, of not having anything to equalize a threat against my students and I.
It is nice to hear comments where people at least consider that they may have to have courage to confront a very dangerous. As opposed to just wimping out well in advance as many commentators here have.
Oh no, the teachers will certainly 1 lose their guns 2. not act in time 3. miss their target 4 not be everywhere at once 5. be bullied into shooting students 7.bear the burden when they accidentally shoot a student while trying to kill the next Adam Lanza.
I honestly don't know how some of you can get out of bed in the morning!
It isn't a matter of teacher incompetence. It's an idiot idea because the job of teachers is not to carry weapons and prepare to kill someone. The solution is not to continue to arm more people. It's to prevent people who shouldn't have guns from getting them.
Anthony, if you are a teacher, you should be embarrassed. It's "the students and me."
We don't need teachers with guns. We need teachers with brains.
We need someone to protect kids. Who is going to do it, the police? They get there AFTER the fact.
How many school shootings are there every day? How about every week? Every year? These are rare occurrences. We do not "need" to have teachers armed to defend their students. When that is the case, then we need armed movie attendants in every movie theater, armed waiters in every restaurant, armed sales people in every department store, armed counselors in every camp.
Why not just have EVERYBODY carry a gun at all times? Do you see how ridiculous this is? Probably not, but the saner majority of Americans do. The states in which the legislature is proposing arming teachers are the ones with the worst education in the country. They'll spend money training teachers to carry guns but not to be better at the jobs they were hired to do. They won't spend money on schools if they can possibly avoid doing so-except when it comes to guns.
Anthony, your type are F'ing pathetic. Weapons of any type in our schools are a problem. Just because you and your militant NRA types are looking for a fight, DOES NOT mean we all are. I am NOT a liberal sheep, and I and very capable in self defense and will take you on personally hand to hand.
You should study ninjitsu. A gun is no match for a ninja.
Even with an officer at every school, with the size of these campuses they can't be everywhere at once. Even if only 5 – 10% of school personnel start to carry, the chance of stopping an aggressor on campus goes way up.
Stupid. Just stupid. Arming teachers is about the dumbest possible idea ever.
Hey look at it this way – here is a way to find out if its effective.
If it fails then those who want to rid guns from society have a strong position and I know I'll kindly shut my mouth and re-evaluate my own opinions on the subject.
If it works I hope those who are against the idea do the same.
How are you going to determine whether "it works"?
Schools should not be armed camps. This is NOT the panacea some of you seem to believe it is. In what other countries are teachers armed? Why is it that other nations don't find this extreme solution necessary?
To hear you morons tell it, once EVERYONE is armed, crime will end. How stupid are you?
Look what happens when someone is armed during these types of situations. Mike Jones is a hero, if it wasn't for him there would have been 7 dead people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Panama_City_school_board_shootings
That is one case then you get some terrified nutbag teacher with a gun and 20 kids and a teacher get killed. gun in classrooms will not be long before we hear kid took teachers gun and kill classroom. Want to do it right how about armed security at entrances.
When the next Adam Lanza shows up you'll wish a teacher had been armed. At least the kids will have a chance on that day.
Uniformed guards at the entrance have proven ineffective in active shooter studies. The attacker has his weapon raised and can move quickly to shoot the guard before they can respond. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/01/foghorn/ttag-simulated-school-shooting-experiment-results-and-analysis/
Jimmy – "Certain death versus slim chance of success? What are we waiting for?"
HJC, what we're waiting for is a sign of common sense from gun nuts, but apparently that is too much to expect.
School shootings are RARE. That is why they make the news. Arming every school is NOT a solution.
Fact....there are less shooting incidents now that there was 20 years ago...Fact... there are millions more, repeat MILLIONS more people legally carrying conceled weapons now then ever before.Fact, a bullet from even the smallest gun (a .22) will stop someone with an automatic(never used yet)or semi-automatic weapon with a zillion rounds of ammunition.Fact. with a growing population of over 300 million people society will experience about 30-100 psychopaths running amuck a year...if not with guns,then bombs, arson, knives or even explosives made out of fertilizer...remember tim mcveigh....Schools should find the money to afford trained, armed campus police...which would have the other positive effects of reducing bullying,gang organization and drug dealing on campus.....If schools can't find the money by a bond issue, then the community itself is guilty of complacency. I am a firearms expert, have a long association with law enforcement and know that many highly capable off duty police and sheriffs would jump at the chance to make a little extra money to help support their families and assure their children of a safe environment during the school day.
I would like to know how a teacher will keep a teen age boy or boys from acquiring their gun that is on the campus. I am a prior FFL holder and have owned just about every type of gun there is and received training from a sharp shooter. I honestly dont think I could hit a moving target in a unplanned situation let alone keep myself from being disarmed. We need to better counsel troubled students and realy deal with the causes for this type of violence by preventing it not reacting to it once its started.
I am a retired Trooper, 34 years. I attended school in Detroit and it was tough. After retiring, I worked as a sub in 16 schools. My biggest fear was the "GUN-FREE-ZONE" sign on the 'glass' entry door. It was an assurance of safety for any Psychotic. Often, I wished someone in the school was armed and comfortable with it. Be it a custodian, admin, counselor, 'special-sub', or a teacher, if qualified. The biggest effect would then be to put a sign stating "Armed Personnel in this building.
This sign would make the school a 'Hard Target' and offer the children a very safe environment... even if the 'designated' armed person was absent.
I never sent MY kids to a 'Gun-Free-Shooting-Zone'. I loved them too much to ever expose their safety to 'Dumb-Luck', which is the only alternative.
I had first-hand knowledge that, calling 911 was a futile action. Please arm 'someone' in your children's school or even pay for a local PD officer/counselor. There are many free ways to make this happen.
We CAN make our schools safer, but the Psychos will always show up, somewhere else. That's just reality.
thank you for your common sense approach, nice to hear it from law enforcement, I totally agree, these are turkey shoot areas and I for one would agree I would feel better having someone trained and armed where my children are going to school, atleast they would have somewhat of a chance to balance the outcome!!
Is a "Psychotic" really going to care that there are possibly guns there? I mean, they're psychotic for crying out loud.
@ Dave-james Holmes was psychotic yet he wore armor so he woudn't get shot. He himself did not want to be hurt.
Just because you say FACT doesn't make it so. You need to cite an actual credible sources with actual data. Gun crimes went down precipitously when the The Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act went into effect at the end of 1994. With that came 100,000 more cops on the street. After an initial drop, death by guns leveled off. The number of guns has increased but the number of people owning guns has decreased, meaning fewer people are owning more guns. In the 1970's, 50% had guns, now it's 35 (University of Chicago, General Social Survey) Your argument is not consistent with the actual FACTS.. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf
You might want to check into your own advice. Gun crime has dropped STEADILY since the expiration of the gun ban in 2004 and all forms of violent crime in which a gun was used have dropped by an average of 50% according to the FBI Crime Statistics. You pick a university study about the number of people who own guns(or felt safe to admit they did) and try and hold it up as a valid defense of your ignorant head-in-the-sand argument. Absurd, and obviously clutching to disinformation designed to keep you under the thumb of the government. Go read something that isn't put out by a news media source with a political agenda and perhaps you can educate yourself back into the portion of the population that is capable of discerning fact from fiction.
Oh I can see it in that teacher's eyes... you just wait... when little johnny gets out of line she's gonna pop one in his a**, good ol merica! Oh yeah, vote republican!
I bet the others start towing the line after watching little johnny get smoked lol
OMG. I wonder how many pro-gun commentator been to a inner city public school? The kids are rough (or they get beaten up). There are just too many situations that a teacher can feel threatened by students, parents and even co-workers.
Kids should not be around guns.
So then don't carry one in an inner city school, but don't try to prevent a teacher in rural Ohio from carrying if he or she chooses.
I work in an "inner city school" yet would still gladly carry my piece on me. What type of idiot carrying would make a big show out of it and tell the kids they had it? If they don't know you have it then how can they take it from you? Use some common sense here! Personally I would much rather have the chance to try and defend my classroom and immediate surrounding vs sitting and waiting for my turn to be taken out. Yes the school is rough but no I have never felt threatened by my students. Get your facts straight before you tell the rest of us we don't know what we are talking about.
And also youre foolishly assuming the fact that a teacher is armed and has undergone basic weapons training is going to turn them into Dirty Harry, capable of dispatching any armed intruder. When in reality they'd probably be more likely to hit innocents in a real life gunfight.
yeap...and that would be the next news flash ! more weapons...more dead people......a progression in killing frenzy as intellectuals are scratching their heads.....what is going on ? the NRA is in charge.....that's what ! we are so screwed.......
You're right Joe. I fear for our children. The NRA's madness is infecting our entire country. An armed guard....OK. As one commenter said, lots of retired law enforcement folks would like to do this. I'm all for it. Arming the teachers? Insane and STUPID.....probably fatally so eventually. Used to be when you moved and shopped for a place to live you checked out the schools for their academic reputation. Now intelligent parents are going to have to find out of the school is running amok with guns as well. As if Newtown wasn't sad enough.....
And facts from a person calling himself "Abuse Liberals" is not only suspect, but downright laughable.
I say go for it, I would feel safer if I knew my kids teacher was able to protect the students and themselves. Just because you have a gun does not mean you will ever use it, but one or two students injured or dead verses 20+, big difference there. Those that don't like guns, move to a country that doesn't allow them...deal with their crime rates and criminals who DO HAVE the weapons and the citizens do not. Yes I've fired a gun, no I have not ever shot a person and hopefully I will never have to, but I will continue to go to the range and keep up with the skills.
Yup so instead of one person firing guns around your kids, your solution is to have two? Yeah that's MUCH safer.
I would rather have a dozen guns firing around my child than one firing AT him unopposed... that is the difference.
Then you are insane. Teachers with guns will not protect your kid from all harm. And you are being silly–school shootings are rare. I wonder if you are as concerned about the most likely sources of harm to your kids.
you are talking such nonsense – take a look at the stats here in Canada... but, then, what would you expect from a Yank.
I would rather leave the guns to the professionals. My hand eye coordination is not that great and I might accidentally shoot an innocent person. Plus my biggest fear is the teacher that leaves a gun unsecured so that students would have access.
What if Obama doesn't approve? It appears that with his administration that state's rights have no place in his grand scheme. He's already picked laws that are not to be enforced and he has publically stated that his re-election is a "mandate to do things my way".
Dude, your post is so not helpful and so off topic. Take your sad Tea Nuta NRA loving a$$ to another thread where it useful, perhaps Faux Noise.
On your favorite video games. They love it, and you do too. Killing is so fun, right?
Next stop, where they aren't armed... duh.
You didn't remove the killing training, so expect it to move where it's easy again.
In Texas where many residents own guns nearly every mass shooting has been in a place with a sign at every entrance stating that bringing a gun inside is a felony. There are exceptions to every rule, but predators whether wild beast or man will go after what offers the least amount of resistance first. If a person just wants to kill as many people as possible in a rampage why would they go to a NRA convention? A person is a victim just waiting for a predator to pass by if they haven't at least thought up contigency plans. Whatever happens there isn't enough money for the teachers themselves in most cases much less resource officers. I think school districts should require annual psychological evaluations in addition to certified training of firearms before permission is considered to carry at schools. In addition all infomatiion assciated with the program should be privately held in secret. This way no one knows if a school has a armed staff member or not. A school may not have any armed staff, but the possibility that it might would at least prove a deterent to someone looking for a soft target.
They can't be held in secret.. that's against the law. Open meetings act. Read up on it!
You're right. In that case armed staff would have to be doubly cautious due to the public knowledge of them. Teachers shouldn't be in that position so they can focus on teaching. Principals, custodians, and ofther staff not in the classroom setting could be tested and certified though. Another commentator suggested locks on the doors. If classroom doors had interior only deadbolts that achored into the floor and top door jams with an emergency paging system by the chalkboard that would make it so only 1 classroom could be shot up before others could react. All this would have to have special propositions voted on to approve and fund them, and in Texas that would probably be at the school disctrict's level. Low income neighborhoods where a tragedy is mroe likely to happen wouldn't have the money and therefore the voters wouldn't pass it. If appartment dwellers had to pay a minimum tax to education that would be a big influx of money. Currently only people who own land pay taxes to public education.
The good news is that school districts are voting to allow teachers with CHL's to carry in the classroom in Texas.
Yes, but as the article stated only 2 small school districts allow it.
Texas......damn it why dont they just secede once and for all. If they want the wild west once again, let them.
Because the USA would lose more than 80% of its enlisted armed forces personnel and Texas would lose the funding for planes and armored vehicles. If Texas seceded neither Texas or the US would last a single year.
Just exactly in what war zone do you teach? I can assure you that we do not have any armed resource officers where we live. I will avoid moving to your part of the country!
We have them in my state. I guess you won't want them until you need them, but by then it will be too late :(
You must live in California
And the gunmen must be from where you live...in Po Dunk Bupkiss.
where I live in California, we have police officers at the schools. it does not make sens to arm the teacher ~ their job is to EDUCATE not become armed protection.
& i am amazed at the amount of people on here blaming Obama & GOP ~ it is not AL:L their faults, look at morals & values in general in the world ~ the problem is too many have NONE & until we can ALL understand that working together to bring POSITIVE change is what WE ALL SHOULD BE DOING, so life is better for ALL!!
gun laws & armed teachers will NOT help, the many states with these laws are NO better off than states without them.
I would remove my children from ANY school with their teacher armed, because what message does that send to the students as well ~ take violent actions??? whatever happened to decency???
The scarce school security officers in my school would not have a chance against the Newton shooter. Heck, even the sheriff's officers probably doesn't have the kinds of guns that guy had. I don't believe the Newton teachers could have stopped that vested, heavily armed and well trained shooter.
Crazy how the proposed solutions to our country's gun issues seem to always involve more guns.
Crazy isn't the right word for that.
Crazy would be doing the same thing over and over (gun control, gun control, gun control, gun control!) and expecting a different result.
Crazy is disarming the law abiding. Creating "Zones" in which you advertise that the law abiding within that "zone" cannot and will not defend themselves.
Ian – I could not agree more on that. Really wish we would take a look at Australia's solution for gun control that worked for them – no one seems to feel oppressed over there, and they haven't had a single mass shooting since implementation.
YOU are certainly welcome to emigrate and embrace Australia's gun control. I haven't read of a rush of anti-gun liberals moving to Australia or England.
I'm in favor of allowing teachers who pass the background check for employment and for a concealed carry permit being allowed to carry on school property. The fact that there MIGHT be armed teachers at a school will deter the opportunistic mental cases who seek out guns-prohibited locations to rack up numerous victims. It might even deter those "junior achievers" that sell drugs on the school grounds from bringing guns to school.
How come other countries don't seem to have such problems with school shootings? How come they don't need to arm teachers?
My point exactly, I'm australian living in Germany and the gun laws in both countries are fair and balanced. You very rarely hear of any gun crime, let alone massacres.
I think school districts will have to re-think their pay scale for teachers. Don't think they would be willing to do that. Again in the Starbucks shooting in NYC earlier this year, the people who were shot were shot by the police AND they are highly trained. So I say no to arming teachers. What are people thinking?
Police are NOT highly trained. They receive a degree of mandatory training. But they are FAR from experts.
Police are not highly trained. I personally know officers that fire their weapons once a year, at their annual qualification. I happen to be a Criminal Investigator, and besides the yearly qualification shoot, any additional firearm training is done on my personal dime.
A comprehensive training program to arm some teachers is a good idea. We can not respond to anything instantly, and having trained staff on scene when it hits the fan is the only way to minimize death. Don't trust teachers with guns? Then perhaps we shouldn't trust teachers with our children.
If a teacher can't protect students by equipping themselves with guns they are not qualified to be teaching? Tom, that is the most ridiculous thing you could have said. Look at the teachers who have lost their lives protecting children. Never in my wildest dreams would I imagine that to be a good teacher I would have to be a good marksman. Really? Teachers don't have enough to do already? Schools need to hire trained professionals such as those found in my school district. We have on our campus full time constables who are always armed and there are additional constables from nearby schools who could be at our school more quickly than the police department. My hand eye coordination is not that great or in other words I am a terrible shot. Would I protect my students and help them to safety? Without a doubt. Would I take a bullet for my students? Absolutely.
If not even the police are highly trained? How will the teachers? Or will you allow only trained snipers to become teachers?
This is a step in the right direction so long as it is understood that a heavy responsibility goes along with the gun and the permit. This is a matter of a heavy response to direct danger, not an invitation to shoot it out for the Hell of it. Incidentally, the US gov't has officially stated that the incidence of gun-related deaths has declined in recent years, like it or not. Which leads us to wonder why Diane Feinstein is still running around with her own gun and permit while telling you that you should turn in every gun you've got. Strange, eh?
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Say that to the 11, 000+ people who lost their lives and tens times that many who lost someone to a bullet.
My brother is a high school teacher and he has carried a small pistol on a concealed leg holster for many years in the classroom. Fortunately, he has never had to use it. But there are more than a few teachers who are already armed in your schools. The police will take at least five minutes to get there, but 3-4 armed teachers can take out a shooter in a matter of seconds, no matter how powerful the guns are or how much ammo he has.
Is that permitted? If not that sounds like a good way to lose your job.
Also, sorry about your brother's small pen is.
D for Dumb
a few teacher with small arms taking out a shooter who comes prepared with automatic weapons? hah!
You clearly don't know your guns, or your tactics. Go back to COD now.
what school shooting had automatic weapons? I must have not heard about that one.
With the right amount of time, usually unavailable, and the right tactics you can take him out with your bare hands. You have to be willing. If you have any weapon you have to be willing and able to use it. Think David and Goliath. I don't think I will be cowering behind a desk, unless it holds a tactical advantage.
I see that you got you knowledge of weapons and tactics from movies and video games. Well done.
You evidently have no idea what qualifies as an automatic weapon. No school shooting has involved an automatic weapon.
Whoa ! ! . Hold on there Mr Shooter - Got t' go t' the cloak room, unlock the cupboard, get m' purse, open it, get m' revolver, load it (Darn, WHERE are those bullets now), put the purse back, lock the cupboard and confront you ! ! - Be just a minute ! ! . Thank you for your patience !
Right, because biometric safes that can fit in a drawer, and designed for pistols are non-existent. Oh wait, they do exist.
There is no cure for stupid.
And you thought teachers whined about being underpaid before? Once they have to start carrying a gun they're going to want more money, plus you'll have to pay for the gun, plus you'll have to pay for the training, plus you'll have to pay for the insurance. Education is underfunded enough we don't need dumb ideas like this taking even more money away.
Once again, they don't have to, it is a choice. remember choice???
You just stated that the safety of our children has too high a price tag. Get real. The issue is, what is the safety of our children worth. Do we put a monitory value on our children. Or are children of politicians and the wealthy the only kids worth having armed security for.
So you're telling me you are going to start paying to turn the whole world into a safe zone? You'll need to put rubber pads on all the sharp corners. Change all the windows into safety glass. We should probably just outlaw driving altogether, after all driving accidents kill more kids than are killed in school shootings. Mandatory helmet laws should also be put in place. 24/7 you have to wear a helmet. You should probably be wearing kevlar body armor too. What else? Hot dogs should definitely be done away with, huge choking hazard. I'm thinking swimming pools should go to. Have you heard how many kids drown each year?!?!? This is going to be hard work but I'm sure we can protect ourselves and our kids from every risk out there, even the microscopically possible ones like school shootings.
There have been more shootings at police stations than at schools. Maybe we should but an armed guard in all the police stations.
dave - Good thinking ! ! !
Until a better solution comes along to stop the lunatics from shooting up schools, Teachers and hollow points will work very well.
So now teachers have to take up an additional responsibility of carrying and securing firearms during school days despite the fact that their job is to teach and watch over hundreds of children, because reckless firearms dealers and owners failed that responsibility. This won't solve anything. I can see a lot of blame being shifted here should something go wrong, and meanwhile, Wayne LaPierre will be singing and dancing all the way to the bank with this one.
They are NOT required to, it is a choice to carry a concealed weapon. Not manditory.
Apparently, it's also a choice to let insane/irresponsible people have firearms. Why must the responsibility for firearms fall on teachers now, whether those teachers want to carry firearms or not?
I hope that when an armed principal or teacher shoots and accidentally miss a suspect and kills a student ... he or she will be able to explain to the child's parents what had happened and bear the huge burden of guilt and also prepare him or herself for manslaughter charges.
cost vs benefit... Do you really thing school staff are going to be shooting children at every turn? Cops make mistakes too but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have the means to defend themselves and others.
I tend to assume you're hardly convinced by this line of reasoning since what most anti-gun individuals really think is that the world would be a better place if all weapons deadlier than a kitchen knife were melted into scrap or otherwise destroyed (and such knowledge presumably forgotten). If that isn't your perspective I apologize, but if it is I suppose all I have to say is that you can't put the cat back in the bag. I'll be the first to admit that banning assault rifles, or guns entirely will probably reduce the body counts from rampages... probably. However, consider that Timothy McVeigh killed more Americans than any psycho with a gun with a U-Haul, NH4NO3 and some long chain hydrocarbons. Fundamentally I don't think trying to make a world where people can't hurt or kill each other is a workable solution. Better to try to make a place where people don't want to.
Better than having to explain that your child died, because a lunatic was shooting and no one was armed to stop him.
Yeah, and that can happen with cops too so let's disarm them all. I feel safer already just thinking about it.
Wonderful...now unless they practice and train weekly they will be useless. They already did a study with real people caught in simulations. All "died" due to the freeze factor. That and I agree with the comments about other teachers and guns. Just because you are a teacher doesn't mean you aren't wacko.
You mean "whacko" like all the soldiers who get court-martialed every year or the police officers who commit murder? Or what about the soldiers who bring their firearms onto a military installation where personal firearms "are not allowed or must be secured" and commit mass murder? Didn't seem to work with them either.
Exactly. Having guns there already doesn't deter them. I agree that it's a dumb idea.
People run stops signs every day so let's get rid of them. They obvious do no good.
As a teacher, let me educate all the parents who claim they would take their kids out of a school where teachers have firearms. Nearly every school has resource officers. That means there are already firearms in the schools. Next, I have taught at three different schools and not a single one has had any detection system. I could bring my AR-15, my Glock 19, or my .22 LR and nothing would stop me. That is the very reason the CRIMINALS can bring firearms and commit murder. Nothing to do about it until AFTER THE FACT. So once again, all you do by "prohibiting" firearms is allow the crime to take place. It is like posting a sign on your front lawn saying "The law allows no weapons in this house" and literally meaning it.
So today's schools should have metal detectors, armed guards, bullet proof glass offices, armed teachers and safe rooms. Heck why don't we go for the double deluxe package and throw in the bomb shelter, surface to air missile system, electric fences, machine gun nests and a jail cell to put baddies inside.
YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!
Adam, did you flunk a grade? Were you one of those 18 year old middle school students I've had in my tenure? Or are you just in denial? Schools already have resource officers. Armed people patrolling the school. Usually either hired through the county sheriff's department or through an agency of the school board. If a crime is going to take place, SWAT can do NOTHING until after the fact. What do you not comprehend about that? Only if someone is armed while the crime is taking place can anything be done. Arming teachers will not enable anything that cannot already happen. If a teacher wants to kill his or her students, that teacher just brings the firearms and kills the students. I have not seen a single school where there is a preventative measure–only responsive.
You didn't say if you have ever killed anyone–even in self defense. Have you?
The work KILL is so light on your mouth.
What is your point?
"Nearly every school has resource officers"? You're going to have to show your work there teach. That's either you lying or you not being correct, either way it's enough to ignore what you have to say. It's about a third by the way. I don't consider that most.
I attended HS in the poconos. we had metal detectors and armed guards. This was early 2000's
Anybody else find that picture of the teacher holding a pistol hilarious? Standing there all smug looking all gun ho ready to cap a bad guy with an ar 15 assault rifle. Gimme a break... Next thing you know you will see a county sherriff kicking in the door and shooting the teacher in the face because he thought she was the suspect.
Well said. Characatures of reality. Calmer heads will prevail. All it will take is one bullied teacher to go off.
Not sure about you; however, I have had multiple teachers who were combat veterans. WWII, Korea and Vietnam and my kids have had teachers from the first and second Persian Gulf Wars. These men and women were all in combat, all held weapons. I don’t think that anyone of them would be hilarious as they open fire at an armed assailant attempting to kill a group of school kids.
And if you do not think women are brave enough to fight back then you have never see a woman defend a child. You don’t have to look any further than the teachers at Newton who gave their lives to save their students.
I am a veteran and have carried since leaving the military. I would rather trust in the veteran teacher's decision making ability rather than the shooter hell bent on killing children.
I agree Adam,I disagree..Guns should only be carried by a certified and licensed professional. I work as a police officer on a college campus, and know these students don’t even know how to tie their shoes when they first leave home let alone carry a gun. As police officers we go through special training on how to handle an ACTIVE SHOOTER. Something the non-law enforcement gun owners know nothing about. It’s more to effectively eliminating a moving and violent target than just pointing and shooting. Another thing people don’t understand, when police receive a call we only have limited information on the shoot. White male with a gun...And in the suburb of Houston in which I currently work and reside, that everybody..SO the first one that appears through the running crowd with a gun pointed is a dangerous move for him/her.
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